Would have liked greater clarification on Videocon loan, says former ICICI Bank chairman
Summary
ICICI Bank’s clarifications on the Rs 3250 crore loan to Videocon Group could have been done in greater detail, N Vaghul, former chairman of the bank said. Vaghul also supported the bank’s CEO, Chanda Kochhar, and said, “I know her now for 35 years, 25 years I worked closely with her. I cannot even imagine that she …
ICICI Bank’s clarifications on the Rs 3250 crore loan to Videocon Group could have been done in greater detail, N Vaghul, former chairman of the bank said.
Vaghul also supported the bank’s CEO, Chanda Kochhar, and said, “I know her now for 35 years, 25 years I worked closely with her. I cannot even imagine that she could ever be party to a transaction which could have a shadow of doubt or anything like that.”
Two of India’s top private sector bankers have come under fire— ICICI Bank’s Chanda Kochhar is battling allegations of “conflict of interest” over her husband’s business dealings with Videocon Group’s Venugopal Dhoot.
The bank’s Rs 3250 crore loan to Videocon Group has come under question with the CBI filing a preliminary enquiry (PE). Sources say Chanda Kochhar and her husband Deepak Kochhar are likely to be asked to join the probe.
On the other hand, Reserve Bank of India has raised questions over Axis Bank giving Shikha Sharma a fourth term as the MD and CEO.
Shares of both ICICI Bank and Axis Bank plunged in trade as both the private sector banks have trouble brewing in their corner offices.
Here is how the entire Kochhar-Dhoot controversy came to light. In a letter written in 2016 to the Prime Minister’s Office, an investor called Arvind Gupta had alleged, what he called— “illicit banking and commercial relationship” between ICICI Bank’s CEO Chanda Kochhar’s family and Videocon Group’s Venugopal Dhoot.
Gupta claims to be an investor in both ICICI and Videocon. He alleged a “potential conflict of interest” in ICICI Bank granting a Rs 3250 crore loan to Videocon Group which later became a non-performing asset.
In his letter, Gupta claimed that Chanda Kochhar’s husband had business dealings with Videocon Group’s Venugopal Dhoot. The ICICI Bank board has thrown its weight behind Chanda Kochhar. ICICI Bank’s Chairman MK Sharma has called the allegations “malicious and unfounded.”
Shereen Bhan spoke to N Vaghul Former Chairman of ICICI Bank, Shriram Subramanian Founder & MD of InGovern, Prabal Basu Roy Sloan Fellow – London Business School PE Investor & Startup Advisor and Sandeep Parekh Founder of Finsec Law Advisors to discuss the issues.
N Vaghul speaking on the issue said, “These allegations were there in 2016, then again were repeated in 2018. I heard Mr Sharma’s statement, I know these two people very well. Mr Sharma personally is a person with unimpeachable integrity and I think more than unimpeachable integrity, he is very thorough in whatever he does. When he makes a statement that there is no conflict of interest, there is no quid pro quo, it was done in the normal course, I have no reason to doubt his statement. As far as Chanda Kochhar is concerned, I know her now for 35 years, 25 years I worked closely with her. I cannot even imagine that she could ever be party to a transaction which could have a shadow of doubt or anything like that.”
He added, “I did find that the clarifications could have been done in a greater detail. When clarification came, I wanted to find out what exactly is happening because in 2016 I did not pay much attention to it. I did not know who was making that allegation, it came in a series of WhatsApp messages to me and when the bank said there is no truth in it, I believed in it. In 2018 it was made an individual through a letter that was written. So, it had to be taken seriously and the whole thing went into public domain.”
He further added, “I would divide this whole issue into two parts – one part which pertains to ICICI Bank and another part to Chanda Kochhar’s proprietary issues. So far as the ICICI Bank is concerned, Mr Sharma has made a statement that Rs 3250 crore loan was not a loan which was given in 2012 but it represents what is known as consolidation of loan which was in existence at that time. So, this was the issue on which I made enquiry in the bank as to what exactly is the Rs 3250 crore loan. I was told that Rs 3250 crore represents the exposure of the ICICI Bank at that particular point of time. What happened was at that time – 2012, there was a decision by the lead bank – which was State Bank of India, to consolidate all the loans which were given to Videocon Industries and few other subsidiaries – more than 10 subsidiaries into a single loan in order to capture the cash flows and capture the full security. ICICI Bank participated in that consortium of 20 banks. Participation was no more than the exposure which they already have of loans which have been given right from the beginning. The Rs 3250 crore is not a new loan that has been given to Videocon but it represents a consolidation of the existing loans given to the Videocon and subsidiaries has not come out.”
Below is the excerpt of N Vaghul’s interview.
Shereen: If I may start by asking you these were allegations that were first brought to light in 2016. As per what MK Sharma told us in that press conference the board of ICICI Bank looked to those allegations and apparently adequately addressed them? Should this not have been made public? Should this not have been put out in the public domain to address the allegations that were first raised in 2016 if indeed the board had found that there was no discrepancy of any kind that there was no mala fide of any kind, that there was nothing improper in the transactions that had been done?
A: These allegations were there in 2016, then again were repeated in 2018. I heard Mr Sharma’s statement, I know these two people very well. Mr Sharma personally is a person with unimpeachable integrity and I think more than an unimpeachable integrity, he is very thorough in whatever he does. When he makes a statement that there is no conflict of interest, there is no quid pro quo, it was done in the normal course, I have no reason to doubt his statement. As far as Chanda Kochhar is concerned, I know her now for 35 years, 25 years I worked closely with her. I cannot even imagine that she could ever be party to a transaction which could have a shadow of doubt or anything like that.
I don’t know the full details. I did find that clarifications could be a little more done in greater detail. When the clarification came, I wanted to find out what exactly is happening because in 2016 I did not pay much attention to it. I did not know who was making that allegation. It came in a series of WhatsApp messages to me and when the bank said there is no truth in it, I believed in it.
In 2018 it was made by an individual through a letter that was written. So, I think it had to be taken seriously and 2018 the whole thing went into a public domain. What was a loose rumour you don’t put it in the public domain.
Shereen: If I can specifically ask you since you said that you decided to take the allegations much more seriously in 2018 and you have asked the bank question specifically with respect to the allegations made what is the clarity that you have got on this convertible debenture of Rs 64 crore because that is really at the heart of the controversies isn’t it?
A: I would divide this whole issue into two parts – one part which pertains to ICICI Bank and another part to Chanda Kochhar’s proprietary issues. So far as the ICICI Bank is concerned, Mr Sharma has made a statement that Rs 3,250 crore loan was not a loan which was given in 2012, but it represents what is known as consolidation of the loan which was in existence at that time. So, this was an issue on which I made enquiries in the bank as to what exactly is the Rs 3,250 crore loan. I was told that Rs 3,250 crore represents the exposure of the ICICI Bank at that particular point of time. What happened was at that time – 2012, there was a decision by the lead bank – which was State Bank of India, to consolidate all the loans which were given to Videocon Industries and few other subsidiaries – more than 10 subsidiaries into a single loan in order to capture the cash flows and capture the full security.
ICICI Bank participated in that consortium of the 20 banks. Participation was no more than the exposure which they already have of loans which have been given right from the beginning. As far as I know that this Videocon had been dealing with ICICI Bank from the time of 1985. Their relationship with ICICI Bank was as long as about now 33 years. At the time when I left it was about 25 years. So the Rs 3,250 crore is not a new loan that has been given to Videocon, but it represents a consolidation of the existing loans given to the Videocon and the subsidiaries has not come out. I heard a few people talk about as though that Rs 3,250 crore of represents a new loan. I don’t think it is correct.
Latha: Nothing new was given after – in 2012 no additional money?
A: Nothing was given, no additional money. In fact 2012, I am told because I am not in bank, I can’t access the records. I am told that in 2012 what was given at Rs 3,250 crore represents the actual exposure of ICICI at that particular point of time, represents the series of loans given to Videocon and its subsidiaries over a period of time, over a period of last four-five years 2008-2012. In Rs 3,250 crore does not represent any increase in exposure. In fact when you take the total consolidation I am told that there is reduction in the share, so far as the consortium is concerned so new facilities were given in to 2012.
Latha: No covenants were changed because when it became a consortium loan new conditions?
A: I am sure, I am not privy to that I cannot say that. Certainly, I supposed there must have been a consolidation of security, there must have been escrow process in which you capture the cash flow. More important point is a proof of the pudding lies in the eating. In 2012 consolidation took place. Till 2017 the loan was a performing loan. They were paying the interest, they were paying the instalments. It was not as if that the loan was bad right ab initio. The loan was a performing loan in 2017 and in 2017 the loan became non-performing loan. Right now I think it has gone into the insolvency and it will be dealt with in accordance with insolvency.
Latha: Are the conditions imposed by ICICI in their covenants in 2012 similar to the covenants of other?
A: I am told that the ICICI covenant is almost identical to that of what SBI did. ICICI did not put any conditions, I think SBI and SBI capital market spear headed that transaction. So, it was in the broader interest to protect the interest of all the 20 banks that instead of each one giving separately for the subsidiaries it is all consolidation. That is why Mr. Sharma used the term that it is a consolidation loan. It is not a new loan.
Latha: I thought some of the bankers said that some of the loans given by ICICI were part of the consortium but some were outside the consortium?
A: That I don’t know. What I heard from the bank is that Rs 3,250 crore is total exposure and there were been serviced and it was being brought down to about Rs 2,000 crore odd over a period of five years.
Latha: Did you ask then whether they were fully aware that the managing director’s husband had got such a large investment or a loan from Videocon?
A: I don’t think they were aware that Mrs Kochhar’s husband was in the business. Whether there was a relationship with a Videocon I don’t think the board would have been aware of it. But the board would have been disclosed that Mrs Chanda Kochhar’s husband has a business.
Latha: Not the nature of the relation with Videocon?
A: That is not asked for. I mean no board would ask for it.
Latha: The board won’t ask for it, but is it not the duty of the managing director to say that?
A: In 2016 when the allegation was made I am sure that they asked for it. And 2016 I suppose what might have happen in 2012 what I am told again this is all hearsay. I am very carefully in what I say because these are not things which I know for certain. In 2012 the business of Deepak Kochhar, Mrs Chanda Kochhar’s husband was not doing well. The Supreme Energy something like that which had made that investment of Rs 64 crore asked Deepak Kochhar whether they can takeover that company. So, they took over that company with the liabilities. Rs 64 crore of the asset and Rs 64 crore was the liability. I think they paid what you call the equity that is invested. For that equity of Rs 10,00,000 was something like that.
Latha: That means Deepak Kochhar’s company intends to redeem those debentures now?
A: Of course that is what I am told. Deepak Kochhar’s company has an obligation to redeem the debentures. The debentures, I believe were restructured into a long term debentures because the company was not making profit, the company is incurring losses. So, it has an obligation to repay their debentures and the debentures will have to be paid.
Shereen: If I may, while we heard from the ICICI Chairman about the transaction between Videocon and ICICI Bank, part of a consortium and so on and so forth, if in fact Chanda Kochhar has made the disclosure about the transactions – and I am talking post 2016 because the allegations came to light in 2016, has the ICICI Bank board examined these allegations for it to give a clean chit and say that there has been no instance of quid pro quo, there is no nepotism because then that means that the board has specifically looked at these transactions that involve Deepak Kochhar, Supreme Energy, and Venugopal Dhoot?
A: Answer to your question, I would like to put it this way that this is a problem with – we have to understand that women who come into the senior positions in the organisation, you cannot ask their husbands to step off and say that they should stop doing any business and it is not the purpose of the board to keep on asking will you please share the details of your husbands business to the board for every transaction that is being done.
Latha: Only in this instance, since it is a large loan, large investment that Videocon has made in Deepak Kochhar’s company, I mean Rs 64 crore is not laughing matter, doesn’t proprietary demand that Chanda Kochhar should have declared to the credit committee in which she was sitting?
A: You have to prove that Chanda Kochhar is aware of it, in a sense that is Chanda Kochhar managing ICICI Bank or is managing Deepak Kochhar’s business. If Deepak Kochhar is having a relationship with Videocon, how can you expect Mrs Kochhar to inform the board? No loan was been given in 2012, it was only a consolidation of the loan that has been given by the bank.
Latha: That is certainly a new point because we were under the impression fresh money was given in 2012.
A: I think that it is asking for too much because the Companies Act requires that you have to disclose the nature of the business of your husband and I am sure that if a loan were to be given of this order, Rs 3,250 crore is a large amount, Rs 64 crore for renewable energy is not a large amount.
Latha: Going by the little we know about NuPower, it has been making losses of Rs 10-12 crore thereabouts. Mrs Kochhar would know if Mr Kochhar got an amount as large as Rs 65 crore.
A: That I would not be in a position to comment.
Latha: If you were Chairman, would you have preferred that she had said it to the credit committee?
A: That is anybody’s thing. When the 2012 consolidation took place was she the Chairman?
Latha: She was the MD, but she was not the Chairman on the credit committee we understand.
A: Kamath was the Chairman of the credit committee. I really would not know the dynamics at that particular point of time. However, frankly I think you can demand a high level of integrity and high level of propriety from anybody, in a sense you can refrain from doing a transaction, but I think I would leave that issue aside because I see from the papers that CBI is going into the preliminary enquiry.
I want you to look at the transaction two parts. One is the ICICI Bank, ICICI Bank itself has confirmed they have not done anything wrong, they have only consolidated an exposure which was a performing loan for a period of five years, which has become non-performing and which will go into the insolvency. From what Videocon statement is concerned is that it might be able to – bank would be making the provisions, and for the bank is fully protected.
Now second is the propriety of Kochhar’s family in what way that is affected is the result of what should be disclosed and what should not be disclosed. At the moment I will not make any comment, except for the fact that there is I believe a preliminary enquiry which the CBI is doing. They will go into it. If the family had derived an economic advantage leveraging on the relationship with Videocon, certainly I suppose that is an issue which would cost me a lot of concern.
However, on the other hand, what has happened is that Videocon was in the process of investing and they have invested in Kochhar’s business. I do not think that I would demand from his wife, unless she is aware of, unless you are able to establish that she is aware of, that would mean that the husband and wife would have to be completely sharing all the information in respect of everything that happens between them.
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